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	<title>Comments for FresnoZionism.org -- ציונות פרסנו</title>
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	<link>http://fresnozionism.org</link>
	<description>A pro-Israel voice from California&#039;s Central Valley</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 02:07:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>Comment on What have we been fighting for? by levari</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/what-have-we-been-fighting-for/comment-page-1/#comment-7718</link>
		<dc:creator>levari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 02:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3156#comment-7718</guid>
		<description>shalom, obama is a very nice man, very noble man, with the best interests of peace and decent people at heart. so was chamberlain. this is what drives me absolutely wild with anxiety about the fate of the powerless poor in this country as well as israel. 
as for the disunity of our own people, our history of this is as long as the history of judaism itself. golden calf? saducees? the enlightened reform movement that led directly to the holocaust (had we not been practicing a politics of appeasement, i believe more jews would have escaped and fought the nazis instead of sitting around hoping for the best and believing in human decency). fortunately, we also have the blessed curmudgeons and heroes in our midst, to whom we should all listen before things get out of hand. bud is right. forward this blog to as many people as possible. i do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>shalom, obama is a very nice man, very noble man, with the best interests of peace and decent people at heart. so was chamberlain. this is what drives me absolutely wild with anxiety about the fate of the powerless poor in this country as well as israel.<br />
as for the disunity of our own people, our history of this is as long as the history of judaism itself. golden calf? saducees? the enlightened reform movement that led directly to the holocaust (had we not been practicing a politics of appeasement, i believe more jews would have escaped and fought the nazis instead of sitting around hoping for the best and believing in human decency). fortunately, we also have the blessed curmudgeons and heroes in our midst, to whom we should all listen before things get out of hand. bud is right. forward this blog to as many people as possible. i do.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What have we been fighting for? by Robman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/what-have-we-been-fighting-for/comment-page-1/#comment-7717</link>
		<dc:creator>Robman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3156#comment-7717</guid>
		<description>Shalom Freedman:

Buddy, except among a segment that one might describe as naive &quot;useful idiots&quot; (e.g., Rachel Corrie), you can bet that among the &quot;powers that be&quot; inside the journalistic organizations, the halls of government, and in academia, many key people know very well what they are doing.

Either they are 1) actively promoting the Arab/Moslem agenda in an openly sectarian and amoral fashion (e.g., Rashid Khalidi), 2) they are knee-jerk 60s leftover hippies who see this issue as yet another platform from which to bash the &quot;establishment&quot; (e.g., Noam Chomsky), or 3) they are self-described foreign policy &quot;realists&quot; who intend to sacrifice Israel on the altar of the demands of so-called &quot;moderate&quot; Arabs/Moslems so as to gain their cooperation in fighting the &quot;extremist&#039; Moslems (e.g., John Mearsheimer).  Or, 4) they are simply &quot;on the take&quot;...i.e., they are lining their pockets with petrodollars by means of bashing Israel (e.g., Gwynne Dyer, or Human Rights Watch).  A possible combination of all four motives might be contained in one vessel:  Barack Hussein Obama (or, &quot;Neville Carter Hussein Obama&quot;, as I like to call him).

In all fairness though, as bad as Obama is, he is not 100% anti-Israel.  I have seen credible reports of greatly increased military cooperation with Israel under his administration compared with Bush, and I&#039;ve heard blurbs from Obama admin. officials wondering why the press does not cover these aspects of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, but only the negative.  I would say that the media is even worse than Obama, that they are &quot;egging him on&quot;, at the behest of their petrodollar pimps.  

At any rate, this does not so much represent an &quot;unrealistic&quot; reading of the Mideast as much as it represents a highly rationalized form of craven cowardice, and even outright base corruption.  It has little to do with any sort of rational or just interpretation of this situation.

You ask &quot;where have they been&quot; all these years?  They have been on our &quot;elite&quot; - and even not-so-elite - college campuses, having their brains stuffed with all of this pro-Palestinian nonsense by Middle East Studies Departments endowed by Sheikh Guess Who, who decides through proxies like the good Dr. Khalidi what gets taught, and by whom, and what point of view (that would be ours) absolutely is suppressed.  That is, if they are not directly soliciting $$$ from Saudi royals or Iranian operatives, advertising themselves as opponents of Israel.  Hey, it sure beats working!

Think about it, Shalom.  Consider all the sorts of organizations that depend heavily on donors to keep afloat:  universities, religious organizations (e.g., Presbytarian Church, United Church of Canada), politicians, public radio.  Also stop to consider how precarious the balance sheet is for many news organizations, like the NYT, and many other newspapers.  Who has millions of petrodollars to throw around at this, just waiting for willing recipients to do their bidding?  

We know this is happening.  It was revealed in the case of HRW back in 2009, and I&#039;m sure that is the tip of the iceberg.  I have no proof in the case of Gwynne Dyer, but if you are familiar with his work, I&#039;m sure you&#039;d agree that the Iranians could not get a better spokesman for their agenda.  If he isn&#039;t being paid by them, he ought to be.  And I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve heard about the divestment campaigns coming out of places like the United Church of Canada that was just barely turned back...What dog do they have in this fight?  Can minimally educated, informed people really be so ignorant as to the abysmal human rights record of Israel&#039;s adversaries?  I simply don&#039;t buy that they come to their stands against Israel innocently.  No way.  Especially, when you consider how comparatively rare this sort of activity was even 20 years ago.  What has changed?  

Conversely, why, on national/international-level media, do we virtually NEVER hear points of view like Vic&#039;s promoted by pundits?  Does Vic or you or I have some esoteric, unique access to information that virtually the whole of the journalistic community is unaware of?  How can they be so unanimously, uniformly ignorant?  You might perceive my rant here has conspiracy-mongering, but what makes more sense?  My theory, or just random, coincidental, complete ignorance on the part of legions of journalists, politicians, college professors, etc., etc.? 

This is one of the great scandals of our times.  These are tactics that were first developed by the Vietnamese communists during the 1960s, whom Arafat visited during that time in order to get tactical advice.  Everything that is being done to Israel today, was being done to us in Vietnam then.  Terrorism, suicide bombers, child warriors, hiding behind civilians in order to deliberately get us to inflict casualties on them, aggression by ruthless thugs cast as &quot;national liberation&quot;...the works.  Only today, the bad guys pursuing this agenda have refined the tactics involved to an even greater degree, have been at it a lot longer, and have a lot more money to spend on it.

And the punchline:  It is all LEGAL.  What happens if the editor of the NYT, say, is discovered to have been taking $$$ under the table so as to promote an anti-Israel line?  He loses his reputation.  He might get fired.  Their pitiful readership will shrink even further.  But he won&#039;t go to jail.  These operations are low-risk, and very cost-effective.

Before we all despair too much, though, we might consider that the Soviets used similar tools during the Cold War; they called them &quot;active measures&quot; and were quite open about doing this, though obviously, they would not name names.  I remember those days, the Soviet apologist journalists and academics, it wasn&#039;t too hard for me to figure out who was probably who.  But the Soviets still lost the Cold War.

What is most depressing to me in all of this, though, which brings us back to Vic&#039;s article of today, is the disunity among our own people over this.  I expect the Arabs and Moslems to behave like the enemy, for that is what they are. It doesn&#039;t surprise me that some Americans and other Westerners, who are not Jewish, who have nothing they perceive to be immediately at stake (even though they do; the Islamists are their enemies as much as they are Israel&#039;s), conveniently try to scapegoat the Jews out of bigotry or take money to do so or both.  But that so many of our fellow Jews don&#039;t &quot;get it&quot;, that pains me enormously. It makes it ten times harder for us to fight back effectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shalom Freedman:</p>
<p>Buddy, except among a segment that one might describe as naive &#8220;useful idiots&#8221; (e.g., Rachel Corrie), you can bet that among the &#8220;powers that be&#8221; inside the journalistic organizations, the halls of government, and in academia, many key people know very well what they are doing.</p>
<p>Either they are 1) actively promoting the Arab/Moslem agenda in an openly sectarian and amoral fashion (e.g., Rashid Khalidi), 2) they are knee-jerk 60s leftover hippies who see this issue as yet another platform from which to bash the &#8220;establishment&#8221; (e.g., Noam Chomsky), or 3) they are self-described foreign policy &#8220;realists&#8221; who intend to sacrifice Israel on the altar of the demands of so-called &#8220;moderate&#8221; Arabs/Moslems so as to gain their cooperation in fighting the &#8220;extremist&#8217; Moslems (e.g., John Mearsheimer).  Or, 4) they are simply &#8220;on the take&#8221;&#8230;i.e., they are lining their pockets with petrodollars by means of bashing Israel (e.g., Gwynne Dyer, or Human Rights Watch).  A possible combination of all four motives might be contained in one vessel:  Barack Hussein Obama (or, &#8220;Neville Carter Hussein Obama&#8221;, as I like to call him).</p>
<p>In all fairness though, as bad as Obama is, he is not 100% anti-Israel.  I have seen credible reports of greatly increased military cooperation with Israel under his administration compared with Bush, and I&#8217;ve heard blurbs from Obama admin. officials wondering why the press does not cover these aspects of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, but only the negative.  I would say that the media is even worse than Obama, that they are &#8220;egging him on&#8221;, at the behest of their petrodollar pimps.  </p>
<p>At any rate, this does not so much represent an &#8220;unrealistic&#8221; reading of the Mideast as much as it represents a highly rationalized form of craven cowardice, and even outright base corruption.  It has little to do with any sort of rational or just interpretation of this situation.</p>
<p>You ask &#8220;where have they been&#8221; all these years?  They have been on our &#8220;elite&#8221; &#8211; and even not-so-elite &#8211; college campuses, having their brains stuffed with all of this pro-Palestinian nonsense by Middle East Studies Departments endowed by Sheikh Guess Who, who decides through proxies like the good Dr. Khalidi what gets taught, and by whom, and what point of view (that would be ours) absolutely is suppressed.  That is, if they are not directly soliciting $$$ from Saudi royals or Iranian operatives, advertising themselves as opponents of Israel.  Hey, it sure beats working!</p>
<p>Think about it, Shalom.  Consider all the sorts of organizations that depend heavily on donors to keep afloat:  universities, religious organizations (e.g., Presbytarian Church, United Church of Canada), politicians, public radio.  Also stop to consider how precarious the balance sheet is for many news organizations, like the NYT, and many other newspapers.  Who has millions of petrodollars to throw around at this, just waiting for willing recipients to do their bidding?  </p>
<p>We know this is happening.  It was revealed in the case of HRW back in 2009, and I&#8217;m sure that is the tip of the iceberg.  I have no proof in the case of Gwynne Dyer, but if you are familiar with his work, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;d agree that the Iranians could not get a better spokesman for their agenda.  If he isn&#8217;t being paid by them, he ought to be.  And I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve heard about the divestment campaigns coming out of places like the United Church of Canada that was just barely turned back&#8230;What dog do they have in this fight?  Can minimally educated, informed people really be so ignorant as to the abysmal human rights record of Israel&#8217;s adversaries?  I simply don&#8217;t buy that they come to their stands against Israel innocently.  No way.  Especially, when you consider how comparatively rare this sort of activity was even 20 years ago.  What has changed?  </p>
<p>Conversely, why, on national/international-level media, do we virtually NEVER hear points of view like Vic&#8217;s promoted by pundits?  Does Vic or you or I have some esoteric, unique access to information that virtually the whole of the journalistic community is unaware of?  How can they be so unanimously, uniformly ignorant?  You might perceive my rant here has conspiracy-mongering, but what makes more sense?  My theory, or just random, coincidental, complete ignorance on the part of legions of journalists, politicians, college professors, etc., etc.? </p>
<p>This is one of the great scandals of our times.  These are tactics that were first developed by the Vietnamese communists during the 1960s, whom Arafat visited during that time in order to get tactical advice.  Everything that is being done to Israel today, was being done to us in Vietnam then.  Terrorism, suicide bombers, child warriors, hiding behind civilians in order to deliberately get us to inflict casualties on them, aggression by ruthless thugs cast as &#8220;national liberation&#8221;&#8230;the works.  Only today, the bad guys pursuing this agenda have refined the tactics involved to an even greater degree, have been at it a lot longer, and have a lot more money to spend on it.</p>
<p>And the punchline:  It is all LEGAL.  What happens if the editor of the NYT, say, is discovered to have been taking $$$ under the table so as to promote an anti-Israel line?  He loses his reputation.  He might get fired.  Their pitiful readership will shrink even further.  But he won&#8217;t go to jail.  These operations are low-risk, and very cost-effective.</p>
<p>Before we all despair too much, though, we might consider that the Soviets used similar tools during the Cold War; they called them &#8220;active measures&#8221; and were quite open about doing this, though obviously, they would not name names.  I remember those days, the Soviet apologist journalists and academics, it wasn&#8217;t too hard for me to figure out who was probably who.  But the Soviets still lost the Cold War.</p>
<p>What is most depressing to me in all of this, though, which brings us back to Vic&#8217;s article of today, is the disunity among our own people over this.  I expect the Arabs and Moslems to behave like the enemy, for that is what they are. It doesn&#8217;t surprise me that some Americans and other Westerners, who are not Jewish, who have nothing they perceive to be immediately at stake (even though they do; the Islamists are their enemies as much as they are Israel&#8217;s), conveniently try to scapegoat the Jews out of bigotry or take money to do so or both.  But that so many of our fellow Jews don&#8217;t &#8220;get it&#8221;, that pains me enormously. It makes it ten times harder for us to fight back effectively.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What have we been fighting for? by Shalom Freedman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/what-have-we-been-fighting-for/comment-page-1/#comment-7716</link>
		<dc:creator>Shalom Freedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3156#comment-7716</guid>
		<description>I agree with Robman&#039;s assessment that this site FresnoZionism and Vic Rosenthal set out the issues, and define the reality in a way second to none.  What frustrates among other things, is the stubborn stupidity of all those who believe they are doing Israel a favor by &#039;pushing it&#039; to peace.  Their totally unrealistic reading of the Middle East reality is shameful. Where have they been all these years? Do they have no knowledge whateover of the Arab societies and media, of what these people really say and think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Robman&#8217;s assessment that this site FresnoZionism and Vic Rosenthal set out the issues, and define the reality in a way second to none.  What frustrates among other things, is the stubborn stupidity of all those who believe they are doing Israel a favor by &#8216;pushing it&#8217; to peace.  Their totally unrealistic reading of the Middle East reality is shameful. Where have they been all these years? Do they have no knowledge whateover of the Arab societies and media, of what these people really say and think?</p>
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		<title>Comment on What have we been fighting for? by Robman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/what-have-we-been-fighting-for/comment-page-1/#comment-7715</link>
		<dc:creator>Robman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3156#comment-7715</guid>
		<description>Um, in that last paragraph, &quot;patriotic&quot;, not &quot;partriotic&quot;.  And, &quot;as a Jew&quot;, not &quot;as Jew&quot;.  Got pretty far that time without typos......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, in that last paragraph, &#8220;patriotic&#8221;, not &#8220;partriotic&#8221;.  And, &#8220;as a Jew&#8221;, not &#8220;as Jew&#8221;.  Got pretty far that time without typos&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on What have we been fighting for? by Robman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/what-have-we-been-fighting-for/comment-page-1/#comment-7714</link>
		<dc:creator>Robman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3156#comment-7714</guid>
		<description>Vic, I can only hope that your blog is circulated as far and as wide as possible.  You articulate the issues involved in a manner that is as good as or better than anything else I&#039;ve seen.  

Unfortunately, it is now up to people like you, in venues like these, to get the truth out.  The national and international level traditional print and broadcast media around the world actively suppress such views; the Arabs clearly own them.  Even on FOX, the commentators whom one might expect to stick up for Israel, or at least give them a fair shake - i.e., Bill O&#039;Reilly, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck - studiously avoid this issue.  Once in a great while, Glenn Beck will put in a positive plug in Israel&#039;s favor; he is the only one with the guts to even do this.  

The rest appear to be under orders from their bosses:  &quot;If you don&#039;t have anything BAD to say about Israel, don&#039;t say anything at all!&quot;  Biden was just in Israel, this is clearly the number one foreign policy issue for Obama just after the war in Afghanistan - if not even ahead of that - and not a PEEP from these guys.  They&#039;ll criticize Obama on ANY other issue - Iraq, Afghanistan, health care, cap and trade, you name it - but not a word on Israel.  It is downright eerie, and frightening.

SO, I recommend to all who read this to forward Vic&#039;s blog to your list, as I have, and otherwise, to get involved at the grassroots level as much as possible.  Forward other comparable blogs; another good e-newsletter is Sarah Stern&#039;s EMET (Endowment for Middle East Truth) out of D.C.  Write letters to your newspaper, send e-mails to FOX, CNN, etc., to protest their shameful treatment of this issue.  Don&#039;t be afraid to call them out for the Arab whores that they are; the more they see that this dynamic is being exposed, the more they&#039;ll be forced to reconsider their perfidy.  And of course, write your elected representatives if you don&#039;t already.  Tell them what a farce this &quot;settlements&quot; issue really is, and that recognition is the REAL issue.  Many of them already know this...and they need to hear from us to reinforce the courage of their convictions on this issue.

Don&#039;t count on others to do these things, and don&#039;t refrain just because you heard someone else say the same thing.  Take a lesson from the other side:  volume counts for as much as veracity.  There just aren&#039;t enough of us around for us to be able to afford people sitting on the sidelines.  The longer we wait to take action, THE HARDER IT WILL BE TO DO SO.

The traditional Jewish advocacy organizations - e.g,. AIPAC - have all but collapsed in terms of effectiveness.  They are failing us, for the most part.  Harrassment by our own government - e.g., the arrest of AIPAC officials on trumped-up charges a few years ago - have cowed them.  And other traditional voices for the community, such as the URJ, well, Vic&#039;s piece above pretty much sums up what they are worth.  With friends like these...

Final thought:  Last and most, do not be reluctant to engage in Israel advocacy just because you are afraid of being accused of &quot;dual loyalty&quot;.  I&#039;m probably preaching to the choir with this particular audience, but for the benefit of the more passive members of this audience whose passivity has such roots, you must remember that in the current war we - the West - are now fighting, Israel is to this war what West Berlin was to the Cold War.  We were willing to incinerate the whole of the northern hemisphere over West Berlin; giving in to the Soviets over Berlin would not have ended the Cold War one day sooner - instead it would have emboldened them and lengthened the war - and so too appeasement of the Arabs/Moslems over Israel is self-defeating in the extreme.  We stood up to the Soviets over Berlin, I think we can stand up to the medieval, dysfunctional Arab/Moslems of SW Asia over Israel.  

Sticking up for Israel is in fact one of the most partriotic things you can do, not only as  Jew, but as an American, or even as a member of the civilized world community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vic, I can only hope that your blog is circulated as far and as wide as possible.  You articulate the issues involved in a manner that is as good as or better than anything else I&#8217;ve seen.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, it is now up to people like you, in venues like these, to get the truth out.  The national and international level traditional print and broadcast media around the world actively suppress such views; the Arabs clearly own them.  Even on FOX, the commentators whom one might expect to stick up for Israel, or at least give them a fair shake &#8211; i.e., Bill O&#8217;Reilly, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck &#8211; studiously avoid this issue.  Once in a great while, Glenn Beck will put in a positive plug in Israel&#8217;s favor; he is the only one with the guts to even do this.  </p>
<p>The rest appear to be under orders from their bosses:  &#8220;If you don&#8217;t have anything BAD to say about Israel, don&#8217;t say anything at all!&#8221;  Biden was just in Israel, this is clearly the number one foreign policy issue for Obama just after the war in Afghanistan &#8211; if not even ahead of that &#8211; and not a PEEP from these guys.  They&#8217;ll criticize Obama on ANY other issue &#8211; Iraq, Afghanistan, health care, cap and trade, you name it &#8211; but not a word on Israel.  It is downright eerie, and frightening.</p>
<p>SO, I recommend to all who read this to forward Vic&#8217;s blog to your list, as I have, and otherwise, to get involved at the grassroots level as much as possible.  Forward other comparable blogs; another good e-newsletter is Sarah Stern&#8217;s EMET (Endowment for Middle East Truth) out of D.C.  Write letters to your newspaper, send e-mails to FOX, CNN, etc., to protest their shameful treatment of this issue.  Don&#8217;t be afraid to call them out for the Arab whores that they are; the more they see that this dynamic is being exposed, the more they&#8217;ll be forced to reconsider their perfidy.  And of course, write your elected representatives if you don&#8217;t already.  Tell them what a farce this &#8220;settlements&#8221; issue really is, and that recognition is the REAL issue.  Many of them already know this&#8230;and they need to hear from us to reinforce the courage of their convictions on this issue.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t count on others to do these things, and don&#8217;t refrain just because you heard someone else say the same thing.  Take a lesson from the other side:  volume counts for as much as veracity.  There just aren&#8217;t enough of us around for us to be able to afford people sitting on the sidelines.  The longer we wait to take action, THE HARDER IT WILL BE TO DO SO.</p>
<p>The traditional Jewish advocacy organizations &#8211; e.g,. AIPAC &#8211; have all but collapsed in terms of effectiveness.  They are failing us, for the most part.  Harrassment by our own government &#8211; e.g., the arrest of AIPAC officials on trumped-up charges a few years ago &#8211; have cowed them.  And other traditional voices for the community, such as the URJ, well, Vic&#8217;s piece above pretty much sums up what they are worth.  With friends like these&#8230;</p>
<p>Final thought:  Last and most, do not be reluctant to engage in Israel advocacy just because you are afraid of being accused of &#8220;dual loyalty&#8221;.  I&#8217;m probably preaching to the choir with this particular audience, but for the benefit of the more passive members of this audience whose passivity has such roots, you must remember that in the current war we &#8211; the West &#8211; are now fighting, Israel is to this war what West Berlin was to the Cold War.  We were willing to incinerate the whole of the northern hemisphere over West Berlin; giving in to the Soviets over Berlin would not have ended the Cold War one day sooner &#8211; instead it would have emboldened them and lengthened the war &#8211; and so too appeasement of the Arabs/Moslems over Israel is self-defeating in the extreme.  We stood up to the Soviets over Berlin, I think we can stand up to the medieval, dysfunctional Arab/Moslems of SW Asia over Israel.  </p>
<p>Sticking up for Israel is in fact one of the most partriotic things you can do, not only as  Jew, but as an American, or even as a member of the civilized world community.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What have we been fighting for? by levari</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/what-have-we-been-fighting-for/comment-page-1/#comment-7713</link>
		<dc:creator>levari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3156#comment-7713</guid>
		<description>whatever the ultimate agreement, it will be painful for both sides. but being conciliatory to the point of refusing to map out our demands &#039;because they are so obvious they go w/o saying&#039; is what is destroying the obama administration. our millenia-long history in israel has left many landmarks of undeniable emotional and religious significance, and we&#039;re not going to relinquish them for the sake of kowtowing to murderers, and to not talk about them is childish and absurd, and diminishes both parties. good point about the money pit.
that said, i can&#039;t help but be reminded of dali&#039;s excellent painting:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Ddali%2Bcivil%2Bwar%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701&amp;w=495&amp;h=502&amp;imgurl=www.artquotes.net%2Fmasters%2Fsalvador-dali%2Fpremonition-of-civil-war.jpg&amp;rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.shoryuken.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D144680&amp;size=100k&amp;name=premonition+of+c...&amp;p=dali+civil+war&amp;oid=69ab75da71f913e2&amp;fr2=&amp;no=2&amp;tt=278&amp;sigr=11jk3mdpl&amp;sigi=1242ii1mk&amp;sigb=12jgadbit</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>whatever the ultimate agreement, it will be painful for both sides. but being conciliatory to the point of refusing to map out our demands &#8216;because they are so obvious they go w/o saying&#8217; is what is destroying the obama administration. our millenia-long history in israel has left many landmarks of undeniable emotional and religious significance, and we&#8217;re not going to relinquish them for the sake of kowtowing to murderers, and to not talk about them is childish and absurd, and diminishes both parties. good point about the money pit.<br />
that said, i can&#8217;t help but be reminded of dali&#8217;s excellent painting:</p>
<p><a href="http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Ddali%2Bcivil%2Bwar%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701&amp;w=495&amp;h=502&amp;imgurl=www.artquotes.net%2Fmasters%2Fsalvador-dali%2Fpremonition-of-civil-war.jpg&amp;rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.shoryuken.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D144680&amp;size=100k&amp;name=premonition+of+c...&amp;p=dali+civil+war&amp;oid=69ab75da71f913e2&amp;fr2=&amp;no=2&amp;tt=278&amp;sigr=11jk3mdpl&amp;sigi=1242ii1mk&amp;sigb=12jgadbit" rel="nofollow">http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Ddali%2Bcivil%2Bwar%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701&amp;w=495&amp;h=502&amp;imgurl=www.artquotes.net%2Fmasters%2Fsalvador-dali%2Fpremonition-of-civil-war.jpg&amp;rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.shoryuken.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D144680&amp;size=100k&amp;name=premonition+of+c&#8230;&amp;p=dali+civil+war&amp;oid=69ab75da71f913e2&amp;fr2=&amp;no=2&amp;tt=278&amp;sigr=11jk3mdpl&amp;sigi=1242ii1mk&amp;sigb=12jgadbit</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Nobody deserves a murderer-state by Shalom Freedman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/nobody-deserves-a-murderer-state/comment-page-1/#comment-7712</link>
		<dc:creator>Shalom Freedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3142#comment-7712</guid>
		<description>If Vice- President Biden and President Obama honestly considered the true Palestinian position they would understand how remote the chance is for having a real agreement in the near- term future. But Biden has come here as a political move to win back support from Israel&#039;s supporters in America, and win some support in Israel itself. He has to do this while showing that the U.S. is fair and cares for the Palestinian Arabs also.  What after all, would Saudi Arabia say if he did not do that? Cynicism aside this is all just one small step in the endless process of pretending to go somewhere while not going anywhere at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Vice- President Biden and President Obama honestly considered the true Palestinian position they would understand how remote the chance is for having a real agreement in the near- term future. But Biden has come here as a political move to win back support from Israel&#8217;s supporters in America, and win some support in Israel itself. He has to do this while showing that the U.S. is fair and cares for the Palestinian Arabs also.  What after all, would Saudi Arabia say if he did not do that? Cynicism aside this is all just one small step in the endless process of pretending to go somewhere while not going anywhere at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Israeli Arabs oppose land swaps by Shalom Freedman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/why-israeli-arabs-oppose-land-swaps/comment-page-1/#comment-7711</link>
		<dc:creator>Shalom Freedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3125#comment-7711</guid>
		<description>This is the best analysis I have seen of the real motivation of Palestinians living in Israel. I would however make one slight qualification. I believe the economic, medical, educational benefits of living in democratic Israel, rather than what will most likely be corrupt non- democratic Palestinian, are very important to the Palestinian Arabs. But the real bottom line as you indicate is that they believe that by demographic means, and with the help of radical Left fifth- columnists they will transform the character of the state. Their goal in that stage is the end of the Jewish state. 
I myself considering the real loyalties of most Palestinian Arabs think it better for them, wiser for them to agree to be  part of a &#039;land- swap&#039;. What could be better than to live in an Arab state perhaps even an Islamic state whose ideology they , or at least many of them, share? 
This however does not seem likely to happen.
Lieberman is in fact telling the truth as it is. There will be no settlement now because the Palestinian Arabs, outside the Green line and within it, really do not accept the idea of a Jewish state. Their honor, pride, sense of themselves will not enable them to do it. 
I only wish the false- hope people in the Western media and in the Western political world would recognize this.
I wish beyond it that the Arabs would transform their attitude and we would come to some kind of agreement.  Unending conflict for generations to come is not after all what the Jewish people have always dreamed of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the best analysis I have seen of the real motivation of Palestinians living in Israel. I would however make one slight qualification. I believe the economic, medical, educational benefits of living in democratic Israel, rather than what will most likely be corrupt non- democratic Palestinian, are very important to the Palestinian Arabs. But the real bottom line as you indicate is that they believe that by demographic means, and with the help of radical Left fifth- columnists they will transform the character of the state. Their goal in that stage is the end of the Jewish state.<br />
I myself considering the real loyalties of most Palestinian Arabs think it better for them, wiser for them to agree to be  part of a &#8216;land- swap&#8217;. What could be better than to live in an Arab state perhaps even an Islamic state whose ideology they , or at least many of them, share?<br />
This however does not seem likely to happen.<br />
Lieberman is in fact telling the truth as it is. There will be no settlement now because the Palestinian Arabs, outside the Green line and within it, really do not accept the idea of a Jewish state. Their honor, pride, sense of themselves will not enable them to do it.<br />
I only wish the false- hope people in the Western media and in the Western political world would recognize this.<br />
I wish beyond it that the Arabs would transform their attitude and we would come to some kind of agreement.  Unending conflict for generations to come is not after all what the Jewish people have always dreamed of.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Turkey picks the strong horse by Robman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/turkey-picks-the-strong-horse/comment-page-1/#comment-7710</link>
		<dc:creator>Robman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3118#comment-7710</guid>
		<description>Turkey does have a good army, there is no doubt about that.  But they hardly have the relative power of an Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany in their day.  Technically, they are still part of NATO.  I&#039;m sure we have a LOT of intel on them, as do the Israelis.  I&#039;m also sure there are a lot of disaffected military officers friendly to both the U.S. and Israel who might, um, &quot;reduce&quot; their effectiveness.  So, while this is definitely a problem, no need to panic.

Bottom line:  We better steel ourselves for some decisive action.  Sitting around wringing our hands, hoping the Chinese will play nice, etc., this is a waste of time that only benefits are adversaries.  We can&#039;t expect much out of Obama, but his successor in 2012 will need to break some eggs for a nice Persian omellette.  I hope by then it won&#039;t be too late.  I hope before then Israel doesn&#039;t act out of desperation, and really muck things up (unless the only other option is that Iran gets nukes for sure).  I hope that Obama grows a pair...that last one is like hoping that pigs will learn to fly, I know.

Iran, is should be remembered, has an economy the size of Ohio.  Their per capita income is about $8000, give or take.  They have a small number of modern aircraft, but mainstay of their air force is still the 1970s technology F-4 Phantom 2.  They have practically no navy.  As to their army, they depended on groups of 10-year-old boys for &quot;mine detectors&quot; (A-jad helped lead and organize this facet of their war effort; tells you something about him).  

Iran is an amazing case study of a country that has used bluff and b.s. to make them look a lot stronger than they really are.  This is an excellent demonstration of the power of &#039;national will&#039; in the absence of any other factor of national power.  It also shows how the lack of this quality - even if you have everything else going for you - is so debilitating, when one looks at the U.S. response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turkey does have a good army, there is no doubt about that.  But they hardly have the relative power of an Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany in their day.  Technically, they are still part of NATO.  I&#8217;m sure we have a LOT of intel on them, as do the Israelis.  I&#8217;m also sure there are a lot of disaffected military officers friendly to both the U.S. and Israel who might, um, &#8220;reduce&#8221; their effectiveness.  So, while this is definitely a problem, no need to panic.</p>
<p>Bottom line:  We better steel ourselves for some decisive action.  Sitting around wringing our hands, hoping the Chinese will play nice, etc., this is a waste of time that only benefits are adversaries.  We can&#8217;t expect much out of Obama, but his successor in 2012 will need to break some eggs for a nice Persian omellette.  I hope by then it won&#8217;t be too late.  I hope before then Israel doesn&#8217;t act out of desperation, and really muck things up (unless the only other option is that Iran gets nukes for sure).  I hope that Obama grows a pair&#8230;that last one is like hoping that pigs will learn to fly, I know.</p>
<p>Iran, is should be remembered, has an economy the size of Ohio.  Their per capita income is about $8000, give or take.  They have a small number of modern aircraft, but mainstay of their air force is still the 1970s technology F-4 Phantom 2.  They have practically no navy.  As to their army, they depended on groups of 10-year-old boys for &#8220;mine detectors&#8221; (A-jad helped lead and organize this facet of their war effort; tells you something about him).  </p>
<p>Iran is an amazing case study of a country that has used bluff and b.s. to make them look a lot stronger than they really are.  This is an excellent demonstration of the power of &#8216;national will&#8217; in the absence of any other factor of national power.  It also shows how the lack of this quality &#8211; even if you have everything else going for you &#8211; is so debilitating, when one looks at the U.S. response.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Turkey picks the strong horse by Shalom Freedman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/turkey-picks-the-strong-horse/comment-page-1/#comment-7709</link>
		<dc:creator>Shalom Freedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 03:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3118#comment-7709</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this very interesting and informative analysis. I would however point out that the United States sees the situation very differently. General Petraeus said recently that he does not believe Iraq will slip into the Iranian orbit. He points out the ethnic difference between the Shiite Persians and the Shiite Arab Iraqis. He expresses a determination to cooperate with the Iraqi government for years to come. He may well be wrong, but when he goes on about the vastness of undeveloped Iraqi energy resources I have a sense the U.S. might remain in this game for a long time.
On another front. Your analysis of Turkey&#039;s retreat from the West is especially interesting. One of the elements so deeply troubling in this is the size and apparent capability of Turkey&#039;s armed forces. Unlike Syria and Iran it apparently is a very good Army.  While it seems unlikely at the moment who knows where they will go should the whole Mideast Islamist &#039;aleyum&#039; on Israel get its act together. This is extremely worrisome. 
China is playing a spoiler role, and the U.S. debt to it is a great weakness. At this point President Obama seems at a loss as to how to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear power.  Worrisome indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this very interesting and informative analysis. I would however point out that the United States sees the situation very differently. General Petraeus said recently that he does not believe Iraq will slip into the Iranian orbit. He points out the ethnic difference between the Shiite Persians and the Shiite Arab Iraqis. He expresses a determination to cooperate with the Iraqi government for years to come. He may well be wrong, but when he goes on about the vastness of undeveloped Iraqi energy resources I have a sense the U.S. might remain in this game for a long time.<br />
On another front. Your analysis of Turkey&#8217;s retreat from the West is especially interesting. One of the elements so deeply troubling in this is the size and apparent capability of Turkey&#8217;s armed forces. Unlike Syria and Iran it apparently is a very good Army.  While it seems unlikely at the moment who knows where they will go should the whole Mideast Islamist &#8216;aleyum&#8217; on Israel get its act together. This is extremely worrisome.<br />
China is playing a spoiler role, and the U.S. debt to it is a great weakness. At this point President Obama seems at a loss as to how to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear power.  Worrisome indeed.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Israel blamed for US Armenian genocide resolution by Robman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/israel-blamed-for-us-armenian-genocide-resolution/comment-page-1/#comment-7708</link>
		<dc:creator>Robman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3094#comment-7708</guid>
		<description>Things are getting worse and worse in Turkey.  The Islamists in control there are now purging the military officer corps of &quot;undesirables&quot;.  

They are becoming an Iranian satellite.  

I think it is time to boot them out of NATO.  Really.  I know it will drive them into Iran&#039;s corner, and it is not good to have the Turks against you (just ask the Russians), but they aren&#039;t ten feet tall, and I think it is worse to have a NATO member state that is, in effect, a &quot;mole&quot; for the other side.  They don&#039;t need to be privy to our secrets, command structure, etc., as they are within the context of NATO.  And....Turkey off their leash might make the Russians a bit more cooperative with us on some regional issues (i.e., Iran).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Things are getting worse and worse in Turkey.  The Islamists in control there are now purging the military officer corps of &#8220;undesirables&#8221;.  </p>
<p>They are becoming an Iranian satellite.  </p>
<p>I think it is time to boot them out of NATO.  Really.  I know it will drive them into Iran&#8217;s corner, and it is not good to have the Turks against you (just ask the Russians), but they aren&#8217;t ten feet tall, and I think it is worse to have a NATO member state that is, in effect, a &#8220;mole&#8221; for the other side.  They don&#8217;t need to be privy to our secrets, command structure, etc., as they are within the context of NATO.  And&#8230;.Turkey off their leash might make the Russians a bit more cooperative with us on some regional issues (i.e., Iran).</p>
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		<title>Comment on The wisdom of Ahmadinejad by Shalom Freedman</title>
		<link>http://fresnozionism.org/2010/03/the-wisdom-of-ahmadinejad/comment-page-1/#comment-7707</link>
		<dc:creator>Shalom Freedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 19:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fresnozionism.org/?p=3073#comment-7707</guid>
		<description>Ahmadinejad is obsessed with destroying Israel. He is also the kind of fanatic delusional person who seems absolutely unafraid of defying and insulting those much stronger than him. i.e. The United States. His latest is that 9/11 never happened. But because he is so obsessed with Israel and because he is capable of taking actions in which his Messianic vision  may trump any sense of realistic consequence he is a unique and special danger.  I know there are other Mullahs, but I strongly believe that he has to one way or another be eliminated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahmadinejad is obsessed with destroying Israel. He is also the kind of fanatic delusional person who seems absolutely unafraid of defying and insulting those much stronger than him. i.e. The United States. His latest is that 9/11 never happened. But because he is so obsessed with Israel and because he is capable of taking actions in which his Messianic vision  may trump any sense of realistic consequence he is a unique and special danger.  I know there are other Mullahs, but I strongly believe that he has to one way or another be eliminated.</p>
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